Environmental Voices: The PennFuture Podcast - Episode 6: The Inflation Reduction Act and the Environment
On August 16, President Biden signed into law the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 also known as the IRA. This landmark 273 page statute includes several important provisions: such as extending Affordable Care Act subsidies, allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices, and raising $738 billion in new revenue, $238 billion being used for deficit reduction.
However, for today’s conversation we are going to focus on the IRA’s climate and energy provisions. With an historic $391 billion allocated to address domestic energy and climate change, it is the largest investment in combatting the climate crisis in United States history.
To help us unravel the details of this incredibly important law, we are excited to feature four fantastic guests today.
Hosted by Travis DiNicola, PennFuture Director of Development
For more information about PennFuture, visit pennfuture.org
Environmental Voices: The PennFuture Podcast - Episode 6: The Inflation Reduction Act and the Environment
On August 16, President Biden signed into law the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 also known as the IRA. This landmark 273 page statute includes several important provisions: such as extending Affordable Care Act subsidies, allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices, and raising $738 billion in new revenue, $238 billion being used for deficit reduction.
However, for today’s conversation we are going to focus on the IRA’s climate and energy provisions. With an historic $391 billion allocated to address domestic energy and climate change, it is the largest investment in combatting the climate crisis in United States history.
To help us unravel the details of this incredibly important law, we are excited to feature four fantastic guests today.
Hosted by Travis DiNicola, PennFuture Director of Development
For more information about PennFuture, visit pennfuture.org
Welcome back to another episode of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast. My name is Travis Dina. Nicole Penn Future's Director of Development, and I'm your host. Environmental Voices is sponsored by Penn Future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. On August 16th, President Biden signed into law the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022, also known as the ira. This Landmark 273 page statute includes several important provisions, such as extending Affordable Care Act subsidies, allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices, and raising 738 billion in new revenue, 238 billion being used for deficit reduction. However, for today's conversation, we are going to focus on the IRA's climate and energy provisions with a historic 391 billion allocated to address domestic energy and climate change. It is the largest investment in combating the climate crisis in United States history. To help us unravel the details of this incredibly important law, we are excited to feature four fantastic guests today. Later in the show, we will speak with climate scientists Michael Mann, to talk about how the IRA impacts United States Climate Reduction goals. We'll then speak with Janine Zappa, executive director of the Keystone Energy Efficiency Alliance to talk about the clean energy tax credit opportunities in the ira. And finally, we'll end today's conversation with Bishop Garcia Dinkins to talk about how the IRA will impact environmental justice and frontline communities. But first up, we'll talk with Jessica Arias, program manager Climate and Energy policy at the National Wildlife Federation as program Manager, Jessica was intimately involved with the IRA's legislative evolution from its initial vision to room negotiations to final vote passage. We're excited to speak with Jessica to learn more about how this historic moment came about. Jessica, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:I am so glad to have you because, uh, I need your help understanding what the Inflation Reduction Act is. The ira, we we're gonna get into a lot of details and dig pretty deep throughout the rest of this episode, but we've asked you to kind of give us a broad overview of this and, and specifically Jessica, help me understand what the Inflation Reduction Act has to do with climate and energy. Can you do that for me?
Speaker 2:I can try my best. Um, so yeah, the Inflation Reduction Act, it really is a historic bill. It's the largest amount of spending in the, in our history as a country to tackle climate change, 370 billion. Um, that money covers a lot of different things from clean energy incentives to natural climate solutions to investments in climate resilience. Um, a bunch of, a bunch of different pieces that we can get into. I think overall, the, the bill is going to, and it, we, we talk about it as a, even though it's called the Inflation Reduction Act and climate's not in the title, it really is a climate bill because all of that spending on climate and clean energy is going to reduce emissions in the US and really put us within reach of the US' ndc, our nationally determined contribution, which is our commitment under the Paris Agreement to reducing emissions, um, with, you know, in line with the goals of the Paris Agreement to make sure climate change doesn't get so catastrophic, that we're really talking about incredible loss of, of life and wildlife over, um, around the globe. So it's a lot of money mm-hmm.<affirmative> and that's gonna get us a lot of emissions reductions and a lot of jobs, a lot of public health benefits, a lot of other really great stuff in this bill,
Speaker 1:So it sounds great, Right. Um, mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So why wasn't it called something like, uh, Saving the Climate Bill?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a great question. I think it was the inflation. It was called the Inflation Reduction Act because the, the bill had a, we had a long path to get to this particular bill that was passed in August of, of this year and signed into law, uh, by President Biden also in August. And it's called the Inflation Reduction Act, I think really because of the focus of Senator Mansion, the senior senator from West Virginia mm-hmm.<affirmative>, who played a really, really outside and important role in the negotiations around this bill and all of its previous iterations from the Build back better plan, the American Jobs Plan, all the way to now the Inflation Reduction Act, the ira. Um, and he was really, has been really concerned about rates of inflation in the us wanted the bill to be called that because we wanted it to be clear that this is, you know, investments in climate and clean energy, but it's also gonna do a lot of good for our economy and it's gonna reduce inflation. And so that was really a kind of think of a messaging move on his part to make sure that he was communicating to his constituents back home in West Virginia to say, Yeah, this is a climate bill, but us also gonna, you know, reduce household energy costs, put more money in your pocket, impact you in those sort of pocketbook ways.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. So that makes some, some sense to me. Certainly. I mean, out of the whole IRA Inflation Reduction Act bill, is it all climate related or are there some other things in there that do actually are, are created, intended to reduce inflation but aren't directly connected to climate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are other things in the bill. It does include, um, billions of dollars in health in to save off health insurance premium increases. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it includes money for prescription drug pricing reform. It also includes, uh, a set of tax reforms, and that's really how the bill is gonna be paid for. So it increases taxes on big corporations. There's a new tax on Think corporate stock repurchases, and then the minimum tax on large firms. So the bill, and, and this was also part of the, um, the, the goal of Senator Mansion was to make sure that the bill was paid for, that we're, we're not just spending a lot of money on climate, include energy that we're actually raising money to do that spending. Right. Um, yeah. So, but the, the health insurance pieces and those, those, um, you know, the previous iterations of the bill had a lot bigger kind of more investments in things like health insurance and childcare and those kind of shrunk as the build discussions and negotiations moved on over the last, over the last year now. But there were some pieces of it that ended up in the final bill.
Speaker 1:So in the art of political compromise, of course, no one ever gets everything they want, but it certainly seems as though a lot of people got a lot of things they wanted in this bill to make it happen. And, and it's certainly better than nothing. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a really good point. It, it was a compromise to get here, especially when you look at what democratic leadership we're proposing back in 2021 when conversations around this big climate Bill first really started taking off at, in on Capitol Hill, and they were talking about a bill that would have been in the trillions of dollar range. Um, it was 6 trillion, then three, then 2.5, you know, went through all these iterations. But, um, but that included a lot more. So we, we had to compromise to get to this bill. And like I said, it is a really historic bill. It's the most amount of money spent on climate, but it's not a perfect bill. And there are some things in there, and I think a lot of things that our partners, especially in the environmental justice community, aren't necessarily very happy with mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and we, you know, need to be, need to acknowledge that. But yeah, it's not a perfect bill. There are some pieces in there that, that aren't necessarily great, that we weren't super happy about. But on the whole, it is absolutely better than nothing. And it's really, like I said, we, we need to be making these big steps to reduce emissions globally and are domestically because, you know, climate impacts are not going away. They're increasing and, you know, we're, we're behind the times in terms of getting the emissions productions we need. So this bill is certainly better than nothing, but there's also certainly more to do.
Speaker 1:Well, so let me ask you about that, cuz I, I was actually just about to ask you what do you think's the best part of the bill, and we're gonna get to that question, but, but give me an example of something that, you know, maybe concerns you or that you've heard other, uh, organizations or groups, uh, you know, express concern about that it's either in the bill or doesn't cover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a really good example of this is the bill, um, does require, like, opens up federal land for renewable energy development, which is great. We need to invest in more renewable energy like wind and solar, bring more of that renewable energy onto the grid so we can have a, a really clean energy system. But unfortunately, the bill requires any renewable energy leasing to be contingent on fossil fuel lease sales. Hmm. So, um, the bill and I can go into more and go into details here. Uh, it might be a little wonky, but, but bear with me. So, so department of interior to issue a right of way for wind or solar development on federal land, the department has to do two things. It has to have held an onshore oil or gas leasing sale within the past quarter, 120 days. And it has to have offered a certain number of acres nominated by the oil and gas industry for leasing in the previous year. So the bill does make, you know, and opens up, uh, the opportunity for more renewable energy development in the us It's great. It makes that contingent on fossil fuel lease sales not so great. Yeah. Um, you know, and lease sales don't necessarily mean fossil fuel development. Sometimes companies will, will, you know, purchase rights away or purchase these acres and then not develop. Okay. But we certainly need to be really diligent, I think, about monitoring that aspect of the bill and, um, making sure we're, we're really driving as much investment into renewable energy as possible. But also we don't wanna see, you know, a ton of extensive new fossil fuel development, particularly in places that are key wildlife habitat in places that are gonna impact communities that are already suffering from cumulative impacts from pollution. So, so that's a, that's one piece of the bill that's, um, was certainly a compromise. Yeah. And I think a lot of folks aren't, aren't happy about
Speaker 1:Certainly, but that was one of those things that, if I understand correctly, if it hadn't been in there, then mansion wouldn't have supported it and we wouldn't have the bill at all.
Speaker 2:Yep, exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. So I appreciate looking at, at that negative side. Let's look at the positive side though. What's something, Jessica, that you just like, when you heard about it, you thought, this is awesome. I've been waiting my entire career for this,
Speaker 2:My entire, Well, I think one of the, the big, the big climate pieces in the bill are really in tax credits for clean energy generation. And you might be like tax credit beyond boring, but a, it's a huge amount of investment, like$160 billion in tax credits for clean energy generation. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, this is really gonna mean we can produce more energy from wind and solar more quickly. Some of these are extending extension of existing tax credits, Some are new tax credits. And something that I'm particularly excited about as someone who works a lot or, or thinks a lot about and works a lot with, um, energy communities. So communities that have a history of extractive industry that are maybe hurt, uh, are suffering disproportionate job losses by the transition to newer, cleaner energy sources. And a lot of those tax credits come with a bonus if projects are located in those communities, in those energy communities or in low income communities. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think this is really, really great because it's really gonna help drive investment to communities impacted by the energy transition and help support workers and communities that have really born the brunt of the job loss in this transition. You know, this is, these tax credits alone aren't gonna solve the problem of energy commu like energy communities. They, they need more supportive wraparound policies and investments. But I think this is, that's something I was really, really excited to see in the bill and with these tax credits in particular.
Speaker 1:So, you know, when people hear about bills like this, they think, Okay, well, you know, how am I gonna benefit from it? And, you know, I certainly, you know, thought that when I first heard about it, and as someone who's thinking that, you know, maybe in the next few years I'm gonna, uh, be looking at purchasing an electric vehicle to replace my current car and knowing that that's, you know, one of the things as an individual I can do that's gonna make the biggest difference in, uh, fighting climate change, you know, uh, going with an EV as well as like enslave my home and taking care of things like that. But a lot of the stuff that I read about the incentives for people to buy electric vehicles seemed very limiting and very confusing. Are, are you familiar at all with some of those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can try and shed a little light on those. And honestly, the electric vehicle provisions were one of the, the aspects of the bill that had a lot of, uh, focus and tinkering as the bill evolved from those, those bigger sort of more expansive bills I mentioned earlier that folks were negotiating in 2021 to, to what ended up in the ira. Um, so the, the, the bill does in overall make it easier and cheaper to purchase an electric vehicle and ev with discounts for new EVs, but also discounts for used EVs that are at different rate. Um, those are income limited. So the, those tax credits are really designed to help, like middle income Americans buy EVs. Some of the debate and discussion around that was EVs maybe have a reputation as, as, uh, sort of a luxury vehicle that's out, uh, high income earners maybe are buying mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And the intention was to make sure that those high income earners who maybe don't need a tax credit can afford a, like, don't, don't necessarily can't access the tax credit mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So that's why there's an income cap on who can access those EV tax credits. It will still enable millions of people mm-hmm.<affirmative> to be eligible for these discounts. And the bill also invests in like tax credits. We're building ev charging infrastructure, so we're not just talking about getting more EVs on the road. We wanna make sure they have, we have the infrastructure nationwide distributed so people can charge their EVs and go more places with them. So yeah. But that, that was the, the EV piece was a hotly debated over the, all the negotiations around the bill.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Okay. Yeah, that certainly makes sense and helps me understand a little bit better. Of course, Jessica, overall, it sounds like this is a win.
Speaker 2:Yes. I would say so.
Speaker 1:What's something else in the bill that you're really excited about that maybe, uh, the rest of us aren't as aware of? I mean, it's, it's, it's, there's a lot in here. There's a lot packed in here.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. There's, there's a lot in there. I think, you know, I, I'm with the National Wildlife Federation, we love wildlife and nature here. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and that's another, another piece of the bill that's really great. And, you know, in terms of the, the amount of the pie, it's not as much money necessarily as those clean energy tax credits I mentioned earlier, but still really, really important. The bill does include investments in nature and we know these investments are, you know, not only good for wildlife and habitat, but are gonna help reduce emissions and boost climate resilience and help, you know, protect our, our land, our air, our water. So there's money for restoration work in National Forest, for example. Hmm. Uh, so there's money for wildlife under the Endangered Species Act for Climate Resilience in our National Wildlife Refuge system. So a lot of great investments there and, and a huge amount of money actually in coastal restoration and resiliency. So that's a, that's a piece of the bill that my organization really worked hard to ensure it was in there. I think it'll be really important. And those kind of investments, you know, they may not come top of mind when we think about investments that are gonna tackle climate change and reduce emissions, but they're actually a really important part of the solution. And they have a number of other really fantastic co-benefits, like protecting wildlife habitat, like ensuring we have clean air and clean water, like ensuring we have recreation space. And that's a, that's another really great part of the bill.
Speaker 1:You know, Jessica, and that's interest. I'm glad you brought that up cuz you know, I've read a lot of articles sort of trying to summarize what's all in the bill and, um, I don't know that I was aware that there were things in the, in the bill that were, did pertain to, uh, wildlife. So that's awesome and great that, uh, National Wildlife Federation was involved with that. So you guys were, were active in providing information and lobbying for this. How did that work?
Speaker 2:So my folk, my team at National Wildlife Federation, the climate team, but also my colleagues on our water team, our wildlife team, our public lands team, our environmental justice team, were engaged, uh, with offices on Capitol Hill as well as with the Biden administration as this bill took shape. And that has really been over more than a year, because we're talking about back when, uh, Biden was first elected and sort of rolled out his build back better plan. And that included something called the American Jobs Plan. That was really the, um, sort of the impetus, I think for, for what we see now with the ira. So that, uh, American Jobs Plan became both a bipartisan infrastructure bill, which is now law. And that covered a lot of sort of like physical infrastructure, like roads, bridges, broadband, that bill mm-hmm.<affirmative> not essentially a climate bill, but also had a lot of great climate related stuff in it. But then also what, you know, the, the, the other half of that American Jobs Plan, which morphed over many, many months, uh, and many, many negotiations and the work of many, many experts and advocates at my organization and others into what became the ira. Um, so a lot of what we do is make sure we're giving information to, to offices. We make sure, especially on those, those nature and wildlife pieces I mentioned mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, we wanna make sure those, those don't, we, we worked really hard to make sure those didn't fall out of the bill as it went through a lot of negotiations. And, um, that requires a lot of, you know, time and energy and a lot of the work of advocates too to, to make sure folks know about
Speaker 1:Jessica. I just wanna say thank you to you and all your colleagues at nwf and the other partners you work with for really helping to make this bill happen. Uh, I know it's been a really long process and it is so much appreciated. And I also appreciate your time today and helping us get a better understanding of an overview of the ira. And, uh, now we're gonna get into some more details about it. But again, Jessica, thank you for being on Environmental Voices today.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having me. I also, I, I do wanna say that when I talk about all the advocates we work with, Penn Future is certainly one of those groups in a big partner group. So, um, you guys deserve a lot of credit too for, for the IRA and what's in it.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Next up we have Professor Michael Mann. Dr. Mann is a world renowned climatologist who currently serves as the director of the Center for Science Sustainability and the media at the University of Pennsylvania, and as a member of the National Academy of Sciences. Prior to that, Dr. Mann served as the distinguished professor of Atmospheric Science and director of the Penn State Earth System Science Center at Penn State. Michael Mann also serves on Penn Future's Board of Directors. Michael, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 3:Uh, thanks Travis. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you. I've been wanting to chat with you about the Inflation Reduction Act for quite a while because it's, it's such a big piece of legislation and, and there's a lot to take on, and we're trying to, you know, chop it up into some manageable bits, uh, during this podcast. But, you know, big picture, Michael, what do you think? I mean, what would you rate it good, bad, ugly? A one, A 10? I mean, you, you're probably more familiar with it than most of us are.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I would, uh, you know, give it a, uh, somewhere between a b plus and an A minus Okay. With, um, a note, uh, work to be completed.
Speaker 1:That's actually kind better than I thought you might rate it. So, so tell me more about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, you know, I give it a high grade, um, and, and I can be tough grading, so keep that in mind. Uh, but, uh, I, I give it a high grade because it is by any measure, uh, the most comprehensive climate legislation that has ever been signed into law by a president that has ever passed Congress and been signed into law. And so that, that's the big deal. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and big picture, uh, you know, the various analyses that have been done by, uh, experts, uh, sort of the energy policy and economics experts looking at the provisions of the bill, uh, have estimated, uh, somewhere around 40% reductions in carbon emissions, uh, will result from this, this, uh, legislation by 2030. So, you know, what we need is more than that. We really need 50% reduction in carbon emissions globally. And of course, the United States has to do its part, it has has to lead. Um, arguably we have to do more than the rest of the world because we've been burning fossil fuels for longer. Uh, we have put more carbon pollution into the atmosphere than any other country, uh, on Earth. And, and that means we have a responsibility to even do more, uh, right now. And so, yeah, we've gotta get that 40%, um, up to at least a 50% reductions, uh, by 2030. And arguably, uh, we, we should do better than that. Um, we should do better than sort of the bare minimum. And so additional work, uh, needs to be done there. And of course, you know, it's one thing to pass legislation, It's something else to implement it. And so that's where the rubber hits the road. And, and that's what we have to see in the years ahead. Um, you know, uh, we have to make sure that these provisions are implemented, but moreover, we have to make sure that we pass even more comprehensive climate legislation when there's an opportunity to do so. And part of why I give it a high grade, um, it was sort of probably the best case scenario in a Senate that still split 50 50 with the Tiebreaking vote by the vice president. Arguably the Tiebreaking vote was really by a cold state Democrat, Joe Mansion. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so essentially he, uh, was really the gatekeeper as to what sort of legislation could pass the Senate right now. And, and that means that, you know, there's some good, but there's some bad, There were provisions in the legislation, for example, that would, uh, support the continued development of pipelines and other fossil fuel infrastructure. And that's inconsistent with a commitment to decarbonize our economy. Uh, so, you know, the good news there is that, um, the side deal that Mansion wanted to pass to, to, to build into the legislation, um, that would, you know, provide, uh, support for new fossil fuel infrastructure, gas pipelines, et cetera mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, that did not get, uh, the needed votes, uh, to be added, uh, to the current bill. And so it's likely that we won't see that provision implemented, and that means the bill is actually even better than we thought it might be, because, you know, some of the more negative, uh, sort of add-ons, um, uh, don't appear to be getting implemented.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I found that a little confusing because when I first heard about the bill and I heard about the compromises being made to get it passed, you know, what, what I kept on hearing, of course, was that, you know, Mansion had put in these, these things to extend permitting and such, and I thought those were a done deal. And then was kind of surprised to find out just recently, like, Oh, wait, that's still had to be voted on, and then it wasn't voted on. Which kind of, I, I I, I mean, like I said, I found it confusing. Um, uh, so I appreciate you, you know, helping to explain it. It, it seems as though it was confusing. It was okay. Yeah. I mean, the compromises that Mansion wanted, um, Yeah. You know, didn't go through. So that's actually a good thing. Right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, and it was a big surprise. It was a big deal. And, you know, ironically, what he needed was support by Republicans<laugh>, and, and they didn't join him. Um, I guess it was more important for them to vote against something that they saw as democratic legislation, um, then to actually support this, this side deal that in principle, uh, they would support. Because of course the Republican party is much more, uh, fossil fuel industry friendly, uh, has been working, you know, for, for years to try to provide all sorts of incentives and tax breaks and, uh, and, and, and special deals, um, to the fossil fuel industry. So, so yeah. So in the end, it looks like we ended up getting even a better deal than we might have hoped for. But, you know, once again, it's not enough. Uh, 40% reductions isn't enough. We've gotta go further. We've got a midterm election coming up in a matter of weeks. Now that's an opportunity for people who want more comprehensive climate legislation, who wanna go further, who wanna meet our, our full commitments to the rest of the world. Um, we need larger majorities in both houses of Congress, uh, for politicians who will support more comprehensive and more aggressive climate legislation. We have an opportunity to make that statement that, that, that that's what we want by voting for those politicians in this upcoming election.
Speaker 1:Is there something specific that didn't make it into this bill that was being discussed that you would like to see people, uh, our legislators tackle next? If that's possible?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks. It's a great question. Cause I talked about some of the, the bad things in the bill, but what's also true is there weren't enough of the good things,<laugh>, that we would've liked to have seen there. Um, there's a fair amount of carrot, sort of all sorts of incentives, tax breaks, and, uh, and, and, and, and, uh, and funding for, uh, new, uh, renewable energy, uh, infrastructure winds, solar, uh, charging stations, electrification, lots of subsidies and positive incentives, renewable energy, and that's important, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Cause we need to put our thumb on the right side of the scale here for too long, we've been providing special, you know, our government, uh, you know, as provided special, um, disco dispensations, uh, to the fossil fuel industry in the form of cheap leases and tax breaks, et cetera. Um, so we've had our finger on the wrong side of the scale, and, and this sort of starts to correct that. Um, so that's the carrot. But arguably you need some stick there too, if you're really going to accelerate this, you know, transition off fossil fuels, um, to the extent that it needs to be accelerated, We've gotta move quickly, and the subsidies alone, uh, for new renewable energy probably aren't enough. We need some negative, you know, disincentives for fossil fuel industry. Uh, for one thing, we can't be building new fossil fuel infrastructure. We, we can't be providing, um, new leases, uh, for offshore drilling, et cetera, and funding for new, you know, gas pipelines. And so that's, and we've already talked a little bit about that mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but we should go farther than that. We should, for example, not only commit to no longer providing, you know, uh, funding, uh, for fossil fuel infrastructure, no more allowing for, uh, you know, uh, continued, uh, fossil fuel expansion on public lands. Um, we have, we have to do all those things, but we also should arguably put a price on carbon. Um, it should cost something when you hurt the planet by burning fossil fuels. If you're a fossil fuel company, um, you should have to pay for the damage that you're doing to the planet. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> in the meantime, cuz we're not gonna go cold Turkey on fossil fuels. There's still going to be, you know, extracted and burned for some time. And we have to make sure that, you know, that that's penalized. Um, that there's a price signal in the, in the market, um, to, to penalize the continued fossil fuel burning to help make renewable energy even more competitive by once again, helping level that playing field. Uh, and, you know, um, there was, in the original version of the, the climate legislation, um, in the, uh, build back, uh, better bill mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, there was support for what's known as a clean energy standard. Um, this would require utilities to provide an increasing share of their energy from non fossil fuel sources, from renewable and green sources. Um, and that's a very powerful mechanism as well. We have lots of tools. We can use carbon pricing subsidies for renewable energy and things like, uh, clean energy standards, uh, to help accelerate, uh, the, the movement of the energy industry, the electricity producers away from fossil fuels. Arguably, we need all of those tools and more comprehensive legislation would indeed include some of these other provisions.
Speaker 1:Very good. So, Michael, again, to kind of summarize what, uh, you said at the beginning, maybe a little bit better than what we expected, but there's a lot more work to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. There's a whole lot more work to do, and that's why it's so important, uh, as we get ready to vote in these upcoming midterm elections here in Pennsylvania and elsewhere around the country, to recognize that, you know, um, we get the politicians that we vote for and elections have consequences. And when we allow, you know, a massive turnout, um, among sort of voters, uh, conservative voters, um, who support Republican candidates who, you know, lobby against climate action and essentially serve as cheerleaders, um, and enablers for the fossil fuel industry, um, when progressives, environmental progressives don't turn out, um, in these elections, we end up getting politicians who won't act on our behalf, won't act on behalf of us and, and our children and grandchildren in the health of this planet. Uh, and instead see themselves as rubber stamps for the fossil fuel companies that contribute to their campaigns. So it's so important, and I don't wanna make this entirely partisan, um, unfortunately, there is one party now that appears to support climate action and one party that's against it. It was a purely party line vote in the US Senate to pass the, uh, you know, the, the, the Inflation Reduction Act with its climate provisions. So in the end, what I would say is you've gotta vote in this election and you've gotta vote from the top of the ticket all the way down for politicians who will support climate action and vote out those who have served as obstacles to environmental and climate action. And if that happens to fall down along purely partisan lines, then unfortunately, that's where we are today.
Speaker 1:Couldn't agree with you more. Michael, thank you so much for the time today. I really appreciate your comments and thoughts. It's always great to chat with you and love having you on our podcasts Environmental Voices. Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 3:Uh, thank you Travis, Always a pleasure, uh, to talk with you and, you know, uh, and, and thanks to you and your colleagues for the important work that Penn Future is doing here to elevate these conversations, to draw attention, uh, to these matters and help make sure that Pennsylvania really does go on the right direction on this.
Speaker 1:Next up we're gonna be speaking with Janine Zappa. Janine is the executive director of the Keystone Energy Efficiency Alliance, a group dedicated to advancing energy efficiency through education and awareness. We're going to explain about how you yes, you can, benefits from the clean energy provisions in the ira. Janine, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 4:Hi Travis. It's great to meet you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I've been looking forward to this conversation. This is something that I'm finding really interesting. I mean, even today, I was actually just reading an article on the Washington Post about how one of the most important things we can do to reach our climate goals and get away from fossil fuels is to make buildings more efficient. And, and obviously Keystone Energy Efficiency Alliance, you're all about energy efficiency. We talk so much about cleaning renewable energy on this podcast, but maybe not as much as we should be about energy efficiency. So I'm gonna start out, Janine, by just saying what exactly is energy efficiency?
Speaker 4:Well, sure, it's a great question. And you know, I don't wanna answer it. Like your physics teacher would, you know, the units of work produced and, you know, getting, uh, more production, you know, so I think energy efficiency is that you're getting more bang for your buck, think of it that way. But the real answer is that you are using less energy of any source in order to achieve the same outcome that you want. And in this context, we're typically talking about heating or cooling your home mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so there's a variety of ways you can use less and they don't typically have to any longer involve a lot of pain for the person who's using less.
Speaker 1:Ok. So specifically, I mean, are we talking things like having better windows and better insulation? Um, is, I mean, on a most basic level, is that it,
Speaker 4:You know, fundamentally short, Travis, there's a couple of things that you could think about in relation to energy efficiency, right. Uh, particularly since you we're talking about buildings, um, the, the, what I would call building envelope, but the, the wall structure that separates keeping your indoor air mm-hmm.<affirmative> warm or cold from whatever the outdoor temperature and what's happening in the elements, that envelope and how leaky it is, is a really critical piece of how well that building is going to perform. Okay. And the next really big thing is about the mechanical systems that are used in there. And, you know, in your home that's a furnace or a boiler or an air conditioning unit and in your office or commercial building, it's often, um, similar kinds of equipment that's just of a larger scale and often designed to serve a larger area. And then the third component typically of how, you know, how, um, a building will really perform I is the behavior of the occupants and also how many occupants are in there. Hmm. So, you know, I might be miss piggy of energy and you might be Mr. Frugal and living in the same house. I might have a very different energy profile. So, and you might be more energy efficient just because of your behaviors, regardless of the equipment or the building envelope. But all three of those components will, um, help to contribute to how high performing that building is, whether it's your home or your office.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense to me. It's, it's almost like miles per gallon for a car, right? I mean, how efficient the engine is, how you drive, whether it's more spirited or not, how many people you have in the car, what type of gas, even though we wanna get away from fossil fuels, but it's kind of the same thing, right? Kinda.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's a really good analogy. Yes. Yes. It's actually that's great. That's a perfect way to think about it.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Okay. So you and I are on the same page now, Janine, so thank you very much for that. I am glad to understand this better because the, the, the IRA has a lot of things in it that are about improving energy efficiency. So, uh, the inflation reduction act, the ira, um, lot of incentives for individuals and organizations, not just to invest in renewable energy, but to invest in energy efficiency. What can you tell me about this?
Speaker 4:Sure. I, I, I can tell you that honestly, this is absolutely an unprecedented amount of funding to support energy efficiency. And of course, um, that's only one component of the larger bill. But just even if you're to focus on that the IRA was set aside nearly 369 billion in direct investment to ensure energy security and reducing carbon emissions and increasing energy innovation, supporting environmental justice objectives and direct support for energy efficiency, that that's, that's a huge amount of money. We haven't seen opportunities like this, um, for regular consumers in quite some time. So I just wanna make the point that there's a lot of money set aside to, in the IRA specifically to support energy efficiency for affordable housing and those who build it. So, um, I'm gonna focus a little bit time today though on, uh, residential energy efficiency and hopes that that will be helpful to most of your listeners. Ok. And you know, what the IRA means to them. So to drill down there, there is, um, a tax credit that's been in place for a while called 25 C in the tax code, but it now is a lot, um, bigger and more long lasting before, basically you could take$500 tax credit once it was a lifetime cap, and now you can take up to$1,200 a year. Wow. Um, as a tax credit that comes right off your tax bill. And that's, it has to be applied for certain things though, right? You know, it's up to 30% of the cost of qualified products or equipment that help to reduce energy use. And that's, that runs a gamut of many, many things, whether that's that air ceiling or insulation or, uh, just a host of things. In addition, there's an even better tax credit trying to encourage homeowners to install what's called a heat pump. And that's just a heating and cooling appliance that would replace your furnace or your boiler or your air conditioning unit. And for that, you could take a tax deduction of up to$2,000 in a single year. I don't believe that you're allowed to take both in the same year, by the way, but you could, let's say do your heat pump one year and then do your insulation the next year and take the tax, take the tax credit. Um, all of those tax credits going to affect starting in 2023, and they're in place for 10 years, Travis. And that's a big deal because then at least you can plan, you know, what you're gonna do. And one really nice component that they've added is what's called an energy audit. And that's the place where everybody should start. And you can get$150 tax credit for an energy audit. It'll probably cost you, uh, you know, depending on what program your utility may offer to support it, but anywhere from 300 to$500. Ok. And you can take the one 50 tax credit if you do that, that's gonna give you a roadmap of what to do in your house, um, in, in every aspect.
Speaker 1:A lot of this, Jenny, my understanding is that, um, if people go to clean energy.gov, it breaks it down in terms of a lot of the specifics. Is that right?
Speaker 4:It does. It does, Right. You can go there and you can, uh, run your mouse over a little like diagram of a home and it'll show you different things. Uh, there's also tax credits for solar. Those, um, uh, do not have income limits. And then I, I wanna make the point that tax credits is only one piece of this, right? And, and those are like for efficiency, heating, skylights, windows, doors, exterior doors, interior doors, blah, blah, blah, Right? Lots of stuff. There's also going to be a rebate program that the state energy program office will be setting up homes, the homeowner managing energy savings program. And that ends September of 2031. So you've got a lot of time to do this. You start with your energy audit, you figure out what you're gonna do, and then a single family homeowner could get a rebate of$2,000 or even up to$4,000, depending upon how, how much energy savings they achieve. And I, I can get into that detail in a second. And for low income households, that amount is double. So it would be a rebate of$4,000 and up to$8,000 for a low income household that, um, participates in this rebate program that the state would be running. And those rebates are even more in multi-family residential buildings. For the builder, they're up to two,$200,000 or up to$400,000 total. Uh, so do you wanna know how that works? Or I do 4,000 instead of the 2000. Okay. You know how you have to have a report card, you have to have a yard stick. How, how, how good is this going? And there's two leads. You do that with energy efficiency, you either model it with software or you actually measure it. And, um, if you're modeling energy savings and you're gonna get from 20 to 35%, you would get the lesser of either$2,000 or 50% of the project cost. So if your project costs, you know, um,$5,000, the most you could get is the two,$2,000 there. But Travis, if you had a project that you modeled the energy savings, um, uh, of at least 35% or more, that's where you would get that$4,000 rebate. And again, the lesser of$4,000 or half of the project cost total. And then the other pathway is that if you are retrofitting your house and you're doing a project where you have measured energy savings of at least 15%, you would get the$2,000. And then, um, for anything that's 20% or more in measured savings, meaning you measure beforehand, you install the energy conservation measures, and then you measure afterwards by a qualified third party professional, by the way mm-hmm.<affirmative> typically, um, then you would be able to get the larger rebate. So, uh, and, and it's the same principle applies across the board, whether low income households or multifamily. So, so, um, that's a
Speaker 1:Big deal. Yeah, no, this sounds like a huge deal. So, and, and I wanna be very clear, when you say measure, that's what the audit is, right? Like that's where you start. So you have that baseline so then you can see what needs to be done, but also how much improvement you have afterwards.
Speaker 4:That is perfectly, yeah, that's exactly right. The energy audit is absolutely one way of measuring. There are others, but that's usually the most convenient way. Okay. And then to do a, a quality check closeout at the end, just a check.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, this, this sounds pretty huge, especially in terms of, you know, going from, you know, a couple hundred bucks a one time thing to, you know, maybe a few thousand every year, whatever it may be. But you know, it, it, it seems as though that in the past, a lot of the ways that people would make their homes energy efficient, more energy efficient was expensive, and so it was somewhat prohibitive to, uh, to people with lower incomes. Is is this part of what you refer to as energy equity, improving energy equity, that, that more people of, of lower income are able to tap into this?
Speaker 4:I it is absolutely designed to ensure energy equity. And I, I think I can't talk about energy equity in Pennsylvania without talking about what is referred to as a high energy burden. Okay. So, um, Pennsylvania, um, unfortunately often ranks in the top 10 with kind of the worst. It's not a top 10 list you wanna be on. Yeah. It's the one where we have the highest cost or percentage of your total household income goes towards your energy bill for low income residents. Um, and we are consistently, uh, amongst some of the worst performing states in the country. And, and that's not because we're a bad state, it's because we have really old housing stock. So, you know, older homes typically are just a lot more leaky. Yep. And the most, uh, you know, energy efficiency wasn't part of building codes until about 1976, Travis. So
Speaker 1:My house is building is probably about 125 years old. So Yeah, I definitely understand that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, your house is probably settled a little bit. You might have been built in a way that isn't as, um, what I would call tight, if you remember what we talked about was envelope, right? Mm-hmm. That indoor and outdoor spaces, you really want it to be very clear what your, um, heating or cooling and in other words, conditioning Sure. Versus what you're not. And, and you don't wanna pay to condition the outside. And that has to do with every, um, place where there's something coming into or out of your house, whether that's your dryer vent, right? That's venting to the outside or your Okay, if you still have cable, a cable line or your digital, uh, service for your internet or your garage door<laugh>, right? Or your back door, that's a little leaky and you can see daylight through it. All of those things add up and undermine the performance of your house. So,
Speaker 1:Well, it seems like one of the, the most important things here from what I'm hearing you say, is that by making this more equitable, especially people who, um, are from lower income families are actually gonna be able to save money long term while reducing the amount of energy they use, which is of course better for all of us in terms of dealing with climate change.
Speaker 4:Energy equity matters so much, right? We do have this high energy burden in Pennsylvania, and these programs that are coming down the pike through the, uh, Inflation Reduction Act, really are designed to ensure that we are directing resources to households that are hit with that high energy burden and to help them make those improvements. The, this stuff costs a lot mm-hmm.<affirmative> and for low income households, in many instances, um, not only are rebates doubled, but you can often have the entire cost of something covered. Um, you know, we, we, we touched on the idea of the tax credit and the fact that heat pumps are more significantly incented. What I didn't share with you was that if you're a low income household, um, that is even more significant. So, um, low income households can, uh, basically across a series of rebates, um, and, and tax incentives have about$14,000 worth of improvements from electric keep pumps to induction cooktops to other kinds of improvements placed into the home. And many times, a hundred percent of the cost of installation can be covered.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So we need to get this out there so that people know about it, they can take advantage of it, right?
Speaker 4:We do, we do. Right. Uh, I, I, I just wanna tell you, and like, you know, one of the big things that often holds back a, um, a household that's older is that the wiring is, uh, either knob and tube, or it's just older and can't support newer electronic appliances, um, or new electric heat pump. So the new program does provide a rebate for low income households of$2,500 for electric wiring, Right? Like that's a big deal. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then$4,000 for electric load service center upgrade, right? So between those two things, you could probably fix the, the replace the electric box, replace the wiring, or at least go a long way toward it. And something Travis that you may not know is that most weatherization assistance programs that serve low income households can't spend their dollars on that stuff. So these IRA programs are designed to bolt into that and compliment that and make sure that then houses aren't left behind. Uh, now is the time to act. And truly, this is the one thing that you as a person who want to reduce your carbon footprint, have the most direct control over, besides your transportation, right, is the how efficient you can make your home. And, you know, something like, uh, 25% of the carbon emissions in the city of Pittsburgh alone come from the residential sector. So if you're out there saying that you care about these things, this is your big opportunity to do something about it.
Speaker 1:Janine, thank you so much for taking the time today. I have learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well. There's also obviously a lot more to learn about what's in the ira, But this is a great start. Thank you so much for this, uh, for this conversation.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you so much for the opportunity, and I look forward to everybody getting your energy audits in 2023 and then planning their improvements. Thank you, Travis.
Speaker 1:Our last guest today is Bishop Marc Dinkins. Bishop Dinkins is the Executive director of Black Women Rising and founder of the Black Appalachian Coalition, An initiative to ensure accurate and inclusive accounts are being told of Black Appalachians. Bishop Dinkins, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 5:Thank you. It is my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:It is great to have the opportunity to chat with you. I've been really interested in, in chatting with you, in fact, because you're involved with so many different organizations and a lot of different work, including Black Women Rising, the Black Appalachian Coalition, and Ohioans for Sustainable Change. Is there a common thread for you throughout, uh, the different organizations you work with?
Speaker 5:Well, the common thread is, number one, is that each one of these organizations is centered around my faith, um, and the values that my faith brings in the justice space. The other part of it is it's centering the voices of those who are directly impacted. Um, and so when I think about, you know, the cross sections of the work or the fact that it's all multi-issue layer, there's this, this connection that brings in the, the voice and the visibility of those who have been extracted from exploited, excluded and invisibilized in the, um, in the spaces of economic and environmental justice.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, when you first heard about the Inflation Reduction Act, what were your thoughts on it? We've been talking with a number of different people on this podcast about it and been hearing both positive and negative. Uh, what did, what did you first think about it?
Speaker 5:Um, you know, it, it's hard to know what to think these days with all of the political rga moron that goes on, um, because you know that there's always, uh, you know, the, the back door negotiations. And so, you know, it felt like, you know, we could say, Hey, we've won some things, but it just feels like a, a a dot on a piece of paper, you know, um, that, that feels like a standalone dot that offers us some type of relief, but not much. So I would would say that it's, you know, as we always say, everything is always a great start, um, because we have to start some place. And so hopefully, you know, when I think about the ira, it can connect the dots in a greater way. Um, the other part that, that always comes to my mind is at, you know, number one, um, for the sake of who, you know, who is this going to benefit? Okay. Um, and how, you know, so when you think about, you know, organizations who truly get like the, the, the resources allocated to them, or as we always say, you know, the, the same old usual suspects and is, how is it going to impact red states versus blue states or, or purple states. Um, the other question, you know, that came to my mind is how does this impact women? You know, a lot of my work is centered around, you know, the voices of women, like black women rises, centering their voices and lived experiences. Uh, but then there's also the black voice, you know? Um, and so that incorporates the black woman, the black male, the, you know, the children and the people of color voices. And so how, how does that, how does the IRA meet them where they are? You know, because we're looking at people who live, um, in some of the most adverse impacted communities. There's other, um, situations there such as food deserts, um, fracking, um, you know, extreme rates of poverty. And then lastly, the question that I had is how does this, um, how will it reallocate resources to rural and Appalachian regions? And, you know, what's the trade off, you know, for all of this? Because there's always a trade off. And so when you think of the trade off, you know, you have to ask yourself, um, what's being traded? You know, and, and, and at the stake of
Speaker 1:Who, Yeah, I mean, you bring up a lot of very good questions. And, and of course, the, the document is a huge one, the ra and we're all still sort of waiting to see, you know, how it plays out and, and what the actual results are. But, you know, as you ask those questions, I mean, ha have you been able to, to come up with any answers yet? I mean, how do you think that, you know, this could specifically, you know, benefit, uh, you know, black women or black Appalachians?
Speaker 5:So the first part is, um, one of the things that we've done is, is, and we're working with one of our partners, Emerald City's collaborative. Um, and we, they're doing an analysis of the ira. Okay. The second thing that we've thought about is, number one, you know, who knows about it? Because we have been over politicized since 2016 that people have pretty much tried to delink or detach themselves from the politics of everything. Um, and so we feel as though our role in this particular moment, I think like many others, is putting out the, you know, providing education. There has to be this rate of information dissemination, but also bringing in stories and having conversations. You know, I have a monthly conversation with the Depart with the doe. And you know, with that we're talking about those voices that are absent and thinking through the ways that we can bring in the voices that we just mentioned, the Appalachian voices, the rural voices, um, the voices of black women, the voices of those who live in the communities who, uh, are often, you know, ostracized or because they're not annunciated, as I said, they're invisibleized. And so with anything in the work of organizing, there has to be this, um, intent to make sure that people are educated and they have an understanding and an awareness of what's available. And, and so we can start there because as you said, we're waiting for, So, you know, we're waiting for things to just kind of play out mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but at the same time, we can determine, you know, uh, what's our role in this and, and what do we need to do? And part of, you know, black's conversation, black women rising, and O F S C is really figuring that out and also thinking about what are the roles that the faith voices can play in this, you know, again, for information dissemination and education. And lastly, what are the relationships that we need to build?
Speaker 1:What does that, that, what does that mean for you?
Speaker 5:So one, one thing that we think about is like renters. So we're talking about, you know, the, the thing, the tax credits mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so a lot of times, you know, um, how does that benefit renters? And so, you know, it takes a step further to say, renters only have so much say, so how do we begin to talk about rental association, you know, talk to those who are parts of rental associations and you know, these tenant, um, tenant associations. And so how do we begin to build these diverse relationships so that number one, uh, landlords are seeing the benefit of it. Um, and it's, it's an easy way to get them to move into, you know, some of these, uh, some of the things that are the opportunities that are available. But then it's also this question that I've been, um, confronted with and asked, you know, with multiple, by multiple others, is, how does this create, um, opportunities for job opportunities? You know, we talked about the union job, which is great, but it's also this thing that goes beyond, uh, good paying union jobs. You know, it's about good paying jobs, period. So how do we also utilize this as an opportunity to scale up for, um, workforce development and going into those communities and again, putting some training in place for them so that they can go out and do the work so that they can have ec economic mobility, um, upward and lateral.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you know, we feel with environmental voices deciding to focus an entire episode on the IRA, that, you know, we're recognizing a lot of people don't maybe understand all aspects of it and need to learn more. But from what I'm hearing from you, it sounds like there's a, a lot of people who just don't understand this at all. Uh, as far as what's in it. Is that, is that what you're sensing?
Speaker 5:I would, I would go one step further and say, how many people really know about it?'cause you have to get people to, to care about it. And so how do we get people not only to know about it, but to care about it and to see themselves in it? And so we, we are living in, in this like duality of people who care and people who know, and then it, you know, people who don't know and, and don't know that they should care. And if they should, how, you know, how does it fit into my life? And then there's like, you know, when we, we can come from that space to like the middle, and then there's the people who are like just so tired of it all that their hands have been thrown up because it's like, I need some right now solutions. And this is what we forget. People need some right now solutions for the things that's going on in their life. And so we have to figure out, you know, um, and work together on how do we meet a right now need while also having a futuristic conversation. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, And then there's I think the fear and the, you know, and maybe it's not the fear, but it's like the apprehension and the tension around this entanglement that reminds us that we are also approaching an election season. And so how much of that will be put on hold? How much of that will be renegotiated? How much of that, you know, will, uh, be stalled? You know, um, because we've seen that before too. You know, will it be stalled because of the fact that oh, elections are coming and you know, and I know it's not like Justice 40, um, but, but we have so many things that we have to contend with that, you know, going back to your question is that num, you know, we have to work with those who know and help them to be equipped and prepared to speak to people who they're organizing with to care. And then those others who just don't know, how do we educate them so that they do know and then have a message or a narrative that that speaks to where they are, Um, and so they can see how it will help them. And then lastly, how do we move the people in the middle so that they can, you know, they will want to be informed and, and they can say, Oh, you know, at this point in time, yes, I can set aside how I'm feeling right now, my tiredness, my grief, and all of the other things that they contend with personally to say, Yes, I can see myself in this in a both, and right now I do need a need met and this is this, but then here's the, and, and I can also learn and equip myself in others. So that, and then we just began to build from that, you know, conversation of, so that what becomes the ladder of engagement after that.
Speaker 1:Certainly, certainly. Marc, See, let me ask you one last question here. And the, the IRA obviously is the result of a lot of, of compromise, and there's a lot of things that didn't make it in into it, and, uh, maybe that were weakened a bit. As you look at it, and as you understand it now, is there anything that really stands out for you that you wish either could have been included or emphasize more or, uh, would've been a bit stronger in terms of, of how it was included?
Speaker 5:I, I think for me is it's, I'm at this point of when you think about people in the rural communities, that we could have been more specific around, you know, how these things would benefit them mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and when you look at the fracking and, and the fact of the resource extraction limiting the choices because the oil industry is still there, you know, and, and so with the oil industry still being there and the fracking and, and all of the things that are being elevated, I think we could have been more intentional at looking at, you know, those spaces where we know, um, you know, they, they would need, um, more resources allocated, uh, a deeper understanding of how it impacts them and the fact of, of, you know, still not negotiating because they're the for, you know, for the sake of what, but for the sake of who mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I don't think there was a lot of conversation or intent looking at certain populations, and I wish we would have done that as well as doing it from an informed approach. One thing that I have been really speaking a lot about is the trauma informed, you know, the approaches that we do and how traumatizing degenerative policy making is. And so I think for me, I would always like to see like, what are the approaches to these policies, policy decisions that they're making to ensure groups of people who are already traumatized, are not traumatized even further. Um, and so that means looking at giving them more choices and making sure that, you know, more resources are allocated to them and for them mm-hmm.<affirmative> so that they can move beyond, they can move beyond the harms in their own communities and be, begin to heal.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Yeah, that intentionality is, is so important and certainly can always be improved upon. Marcia, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate you giving your thoughts to us and sharing your thoughts with us on, uh, Environmental Voices.
Speaker 5:So thank you and again, as I said, it was great, uh, to be here with you and thank you for the opportunity as well.
Speaker 1:And that does it for this episode of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast. Thank you to Jessica, Michael, Janine, and Marcia for today's extremely detailed and thought provoking conversations. You can learn more about each of of our guests in the show's notes. We hope this episode shows that while the Inflation Reduction Act was indeed a tremendous step forward, we cannot afford to become complacent. We need to continue fighting for rapid transition to clean renewable energy while ensuring that environmental justice and frontline communities are not sacrificed at Penn Future. We are committed to fighting for this vision. If you enjoy this episode, make sure to subscribe and leave behind a review of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And as always, please let us know what you'd like to hear on future episodes. Environmental Voices is sponsored by Penn future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. And if you're interested in becoming a sponsor, please let us know. Today's show is written by Michael Maar. It was produced by Michael Maar, Annie Regan, Karen Dunn, and Ches O'Neal. The Executive producer is Matt Step. Our music is thanks to pi bay.com. And I'm your host and audio engineer Travis Dean. Nicole. Thank you for listening to Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast.