Environmental Voices: The PennFuture Podcast
Environmental Voices: The PennFuture Podcast
Connecting with Lake Erie
Lake Erie is the fourth largest lake by surface area of the five Great Lakes in North America and the eleventh-largest globally. The city of Erie is the main access point for Pennsylvanians to the Great Lakes. The 3,200 acre Presque Isle state park, featuring 13 public beaches, is the most popular of all of Pennsylvania’s state parks, with almost 4 million people visiting it every year. This “almost an island” reaches out into lake Erie creating both Pennsylvania’s only seashore, as well as the Presque Isle Bay that the city of Erie sits on.
First Segment:
First we'll talk with filmmakers Melissa A. Troutman and John C. Lyons, who are the team behind the two-part documentary “Lake Erie, Our Kin” which was just released by WQLN public broadcasting in Erie.
Melissa wrote it and she and John co-directed it and also conducted all the interviews for it. Included among her long list of credits, Melissa produced and directed the Rights of Nature documentary, “Invisible Hand” with executive producer and Emmy winner Mark Ruffalo.
Born in Erie, John is an award winning filmmaker who had produced a number of feature length works and shorter documentaries. In 2020 he release the environmental horror film, UNEARTH about the evils that are released into the world when fracking goes wrong.
If you would like to watch the two-part documentary, "Lake Erie, Our Kin” visit the website for WQLN, Erie’s public broadcasting station, Chronicles Page - https://www.wqln.org/shows/chronicles
Second Segment:
For a number of years, a small but mighty group of activists in Erie have called themselves “Hold Erie Coke Accountable” which is exactly they have been doing in their efforts to require the Erie Coke factory, which sat right on the bay, from violating air quality emissions and spilling contaminants into the lake. The two leaders of Hold Erie Coke Accountable are Erie Benedictine Sister Pat Lupo and Dr. Mike Campbell, a distinguished professor of biology at Mercyhurst University.
Third Segment:
PennFuture is a statewide environmental advocacy organization, with offices in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and the Poconos. Since 2020 we have also been in Erie. Jenny Tompkins is PennFuture’s Campaign Manager for Clean Water Advocacy - Lake Erie Watershed
Environmental Voices is sponsored by Envinity. Designing and installing solar power systems for homes and businesses in Central and Western PA since 2005. Information on how Envinity can help to achieve net-zero energy can be found at Envinity.com
For more information about PennFuture, visit pennfuture.org
Welcome back to another episode of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast. My name is Travis Dina, and future is Director of Development, and I'm your host. Environmental Voices is sponsored by Infinity Designing and installing solar power systems for homes and businesses in central and western pa since 2005, information on how Infinity can help to achieve net zero energy can be found@infinity.com. Thanks, infinity Environmental Voices is also sponsored by Penn Future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. Today's episode is titled Connecting with Lake Erie. Lake. Erie is the fourth largest lake by surface area of the five Great Lakes in North America, and the 11th largest globally. The city of Erie is the main access point for Pennsylvanians to the Great Lakes. The 3,200 acre press is State Park featuring 13 public beaches is the most popular of all Pennsylvania state parks with almost 4 million people visiting it every year. This almost an island reaches out into Lake Erie, creating both Pennsylvania's only seashore, as well as the Pres, Kyle Bay that the city of Erie sits on. And though I live in Harrisburg now, Erie is my hometown. During this episode, I'll be talking with activists who have been fighting for years to end hazardous manufacturing waste in the air, land and water in Erie. And I'll also be chatting with Penn Future's own Jenny Tompkins, who runs our efforts in Erie. But first, I'll talk with filmmakers, Melissa a Troutman, and John C. Lyons, who are the team behind the two-part documentary Lake Erie R Kin, which was just released by W Q L N Public Broadcasting in Erie. Melissa wrote it and she and John co-directed it and also conducted all the interviews for it. Included among her long list of credits, Melissa produced and directed The Rights of Nature documentary Invisible Hand with Executive Producer and Emmy winner Mark Ruffalo, born in Eerie. John is an award-winning filmmaker who's produced a number of feature-length works in shorter documentaries. In 2020, he released the environmental horror film unearth about the evils that are released into the world when fracking goes wrong. Melissa, John, welcome to Environmental Voices. Thanks
Speaker 2:For having us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You both have done so many interesting things, and we'll talk about that and certainly want to dig deeper into Lake Erie Arkin. But I'm really curious, I'm gonna start with you, Melissa. You've done so many films that are environmentally related. I mean, do you or did you start out as a filmmaker who got interested in the environment? Or were you an environmentalist who became a filmmaker? Or how does that work for you?
Speaker 2:Um, I actually started off as a newspaper reporter. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and fracking had come to my small town in northern Pennsylvania. And so that was the beat that I was covering. Um, and that work developed into more investigative deep dives into the industry at large. And that developed into documentary filmmaking as a means to reach a larger audience, um, with moving pictures because people like movies<laugh>. Um, and so that was my trajectory of, so it, I ki I came into it through journalism and the Okay. The fracking issue being, um, being of particular concern. But sure. I think, you know, long before I was a journalist, I was a person who just felt a kinship with the natural world, and I've felt that ever since I was a child. So I think, I think that might have a little bit to do with it too. Dunno. Absolutely.<laugh>.
Speaker 1:John, I'm gonna ask you the same thing. I mean, noting that you have actually created a environmental horror film, uh, on Earth, which I think is awesome. Uh, but where did you get started? Which way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have to echo Melissa's con uh, comments about kinship with the natural world. Uh, I, I grew up as well in the, in the boonies of Northwestern Pennsylvania for me, and always had, uh, that relationship and, and respect and, uh, that, that feeling of, of a presence and a comfort, um, within nature. For me, I always enjoyed being a, a storyteller and entertainer of sorts. And so that led to, you know, uh, writing and producing short narrative films and, and feature link films then eventually. But I always, even in my feature film work, I've always made films about things that generally, uh, get me fired up. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, or something that's, you know, really personal or something that I feel, uh, that I can add my, my voice and and perspective to. So that's where I came at it from was, was from the storytelling side and then seeing documentaries like, uh, Melissa's work at Public Herald with, uh, invisible Hand and Triple Divide, which were inspirations for our most recent feature film on Earth. Uh, I got more interested in the environmental side and the challenges that we face in Pennsylvania and, and everywhere. So I came into it as a, a storyteller and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, always wanting to tell things cuz it takes so long Right. To do films and, and so you wanna do something that you, you care about.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So how did, how did this film come about? So it's, it's part of the Chronicle series for W Q L N, uh, the, the public broadcasting station in the Erie area. Um, did they approach the two of you or did you pitch it to them, or how did that come about?
Speaker 3:What did it come about? Melissa, Melissa and I, uh, wanted to work together for a while and we were working on a project around consent. And then I think while we were kind going through that process, Melissa, the timing just kind of worked out with the chronic series and they approached us. Correct. Uh, Mike Berlin approached us.
Speaker 1:Is he correct, Melissa?
Speaker 2:He is, yes. Um, John and I were chatting about consent, um, in the, in, in an ecological context. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and, um, Mike Berlin, executive producer for the Chronicle Series came to John and said, Hey, uh, would you be interested in doing an episode? And then John came to me and said, Hey, would you? And, and I said, of course. And he, John said, okay, what do we wanna do?<laugh>? And so I pitched, I pitched the, I and John naturally was like, could we do something on consent? And so after talking about it for a little bit, we realized that the lake is an entity that is, fits into the, the regional context of the show. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And, um, so we reached out and asked, is anybody covering the lake yet? And they're like, no. So John and I, wow.
Speaker 1:The, the lemme just stop you. That's kinda amazing cuz the whole Chronicle series is all about sort of the history of eerie and the eerie area and the fact that at that point no one was even talking about the lake, which is kind of the, you know, big elephant in the room or lake next door, whatever it is. That's kind of amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. To be clear that no one had taken on the environmental, the health of the lake. That angle, the, the lake is featured in many, many, many, most of the episodes, but Got it in some way, shape, or form. But the actual health of the lake was not something, and the environmental history was not something that anybody had pitched yet. And so John and I did.
Speaker 1:That's great. I'm so glad that that is a part of, uh, the series because that's such an important part of the history.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think it's interesting too that, you know, most of the Chronicles episodes Yes. The Lake is featured, you know, in the story of a historical figure. It, you know, a lot of the episodes are about people, right? Like most of them are about people mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but kind of, you know, one of the questions that we asked our interviewees in Lake Erie Arkin was, you know, do you consider Lake Erie in the Great Lakes a living entity? So it is kind of interesting, Melissa, that, you know, we, we are by this giant, um, entity, if you will, and yeah. That there hadn't been, um, you know, uh, to that point an idea to make an episode about this, you know, entity that Eerie relies so much on Right. To even exist.
Speaker 1:So, I, I hope this isn't too much of a stretch, but you were talking before about consent and wanting to do something on that. And to me, to some extent, I mean, that, that does seem to connect to the lake because really the lake has never given its consent to be polluted. Right? Or am I, is that too much?
Speaker 2:No, Travis, that's, that is, that's awesome. Um, and I am, I'm really glad that you made that connection because I mean, that's, that is in a way where we're going, um, where we were headed in terms of how to think about how we relate, how we are with the natural world, and that is a relationship. And so in a relationship, a healthy relationship is built on consent, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and con and, um, and then an unhealthy relationship is non-consensual. So yeah, it, it, those terms definitely apply to how to, to the lake and any ecosystem. And we are part of those ecosystems. It's, it, it's so interconnected and reciprocal, whether we acknowledge that or not. And our, and know, I spend a lot of time talking about how to create this series to shed light on the fact that this is a relationship that we always have, whether or not we think of it that way.
Speaker 1:And, and that's where the subtitle comes from, our kin. Right, right. An idea that, I mean, you explain it a bit in, in the series, but tell me a little bit more about how you came up with the idea of Lake Erie Arkin
Speaker 2:At the time. I mean, I, I, I think the best place to start is to acknowledge that the indigenous people of this land, this is how the, the relationship they have with the natural world mm-hmm.<affirmative> is, is familial. And it's, um, I don't know that they, uh, particularly the hold asuni who feature in the series, I haven't heard them use the word kin or kinship specifically, but they use pronouns like mother, father, grandfather, grandmother to refer to, um, aspects of the natural world, such as the sun and the sky. Um, and so it's a familial one for them, um, and a kinship. I was also at the time that this opportunity came to John and I, I was taking a course in kinship with the natural world. Okay. And, um, speaking with, uh, folks all over the world on this idea of kinship, which is something that is rooted in all human history, um, all of our ancestors at one point had a kin, uh, a, the relationship they had with the natural world was a kinship, um, in the sense that, you know, in all the w senses that, that, that in all the things, in all the ways that, that word, um, might be, uh, taken. But yeah, so I've been working with indigenous folks for a few years now, and then the kinship course I was taking, it was just right there on the tip of my tongue on it really, um, when John was like, what should we call it?<laugh>? And I said, how about Lake Erie? Arkin?<laugh>? I think it just kinda rolled in the moment.
Speaker 1:Nice. Yeah. It
Speaker 3:Totally works. And, and you know, what we learned, of course, is, you know, that reciprocal relationship that Melissa's talking about is, is so key to really how we should be doing things, um, going forward, learning from the past, learning the right lessons, um, from, from those that we live with.
Speaker 1:Did it start out as a one episode piece and then you just had so much material it turned into two? Or was that planned?
Speaker 3:It was planned to be two, because I think once Melissa and I started outlining and talking to Mike Berlin and everybody at W Q L N, which is the local, uh, PBS affiliate in Northwestern Pennsylvania, I think it became clear that it needed to be more, uh, than, than a one-off 30 minute. I'm, I'm glad that we decided that for sure, because it's, yeah, we definitely fill the episodes with a lot of information.
Speaker 1:So I, I, there's so many things I want to talk about that that came up as I was watching it, but I'm just gonna start with the dancers. What's up with the dancers in the water?
Speaker 2:<laugh>?
Speaker 1:Well, good. At least you're laughing. Okay.<laugh>.
Speaker 3:I mean, Melissa, I'll jump in just real quick. That, uh, do it. You know, I haven't worked in, in documentary myself, and I think I, I wanted to put out a challenge to us to, to our team, to our very small team, uh, which was not just Melissa and myself, but also, um, Jesse and Constantine who were on our, our small crew. Plus we had, um, a couple pa helpers along the way too. Um, I wanted to put a challenge out to make this documentary feel a little differently and give it some artistic flair and not have it be just talking heads, but something that, you know, kind of that it was the watercolor artists and the dancers, um, you know, Melissa can jump in more specifically on the dancers and, and what their movements, uh, what we hope they translate to. But yeah, it was, for me, it was to give it a, a different kind of a vibe, and especially with the watercolor artists, um, you know, showing kind of that relationship and expression through the arts, directly through water. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> was important.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The, I I thought, I mean, I thought they were both interesting, but, you know, the watercolorist, um, you know, I I I felt like there was more of an immediate obvious connection in the way it was done. Um, uh, but the dancers was certainly a much more abstract. I'm like, okay, that's an interesting choice, Melissa.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yes. Um, so that idea came out of a, a, a meetup in Erie where, uh, that dance, the Sage Dance collective was present. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and on John introducing us, um, all I, I kind of, my brain went right to, oh, wow. What if we use dancers to help kind of help the audience? Maybe if it completes, make the jump between the, just as, as representation of the re the, the, the stakeholders in this relationship where, uh, um, two of the dancers, um, in the episodes mm-hmm.<affirmative> are standing in the lake, and so they represent the lake as a living entity. Yeah. And then the dancers on the shore represent humanity. Um, those of us who tho those of us who are land dwellers, who, who, um, have an impact on the lake. And so those, and if, if you watch it again, Travis, you'll, you might notice that when, when we are talking about relationship between humans and the lake, that's a lot of times when the dancers will be on the screen to, to help kind of elevate that or personify that.
Speaker 1:I certainly noticed that. I did, I did. Like I said, I thought it was a, it was a very cool, interesting choice, but unexpected. Right. And I'm like, huh.
Speaker 3:And then we also had, uh, fire dancers as well. Jennifer Dehe and her group, they kind of represent the industrial mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, side of the equation too, swinging their fire AEs, swords, and
Speaker 1:Yes. Right. So I, I got a couple very specific questions here, or comments. And, and part of this comes from, um, uh, as someone who grew up in Erie that I, I lived in Erie and, you know, until I basically went off to, um, went off to college and, you know, still have many friends and, and relatives there, and, you know, great memories of biking around the peninsula and fishing and windsurfing both on the Bayside and the Lakeside and going boating and, and, you know, I mean, just, you know, love that whole area. Uh, but there's, and there's some interesting things that I, I learned and saw, uh, in it and or triggered some great memories. Uh, one was that, um, the Lorax, I had no idea that Dr. Seuss's original book of the Lorax referenced Lake Erie to rhyme with smear. And then him saying that I hear things are just as bad up in Lake Erie, because I guess since 72 or something, or since the first edition of the book, all the other editions leave out the Lake Erie reference. I had no idea about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I had forgotten about it until Jenny talked about that in our, during our interview. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>.
Speaker 1:It was wild.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I actually didn't know about that either myself, Jenny, uh, kudos to Jenny at Penn future for
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was, I was just astounded by that. I'm like, wait, I gotta look that up. So that was very cool. Um, another reference that I did not, had not heard about before ever, was the, uh, Saturday Night Live skit with, um, bill Murray drinking the chunky water from Lake Erie, um, which was hysterical and gross. So, um, thanks for bringing that to light
Speaker 3:That one to me, honestly, like, makes, makes me emotional. Uh, when I, I saw that, like, I, I laugh and then I feel like it's so tragic, um, that Yeah. I, I thought that that hit kind of just right of, you know, humor that, um, hurts.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, I, I, you know, remember hearing Erie the mistake, mistake by the lake all the time when I was growing up and stuff, but, uh, okay. Another thing in there that you guys touched on, which I thought was extremely cool, was the Greenpeace ship that visited Erie in the eighties, because I went for a tour of that. Uh, I was, I, I took the tour of the Greenpeace ship when it was there, and it was, um, there and it was protesting about, um, in the lake, I
Speaker 3:Think that's right. Chlorine.
Speaker 1:Chlorine, excuse me, chlorine. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, not chloride. Um, and, and what always stuck with me was that the woman who was giving the tour of the Greenpeace ship at the time was chain smoking Right. The whole time. And as she get to the end of her cigarette<laugh>, she would break her cigarette in half and put the, the, the, uh, filter in her pocket and then toss the rest of it in the water. And so finally I'm like, okay, what are you doing? You know, you're, you know, you're tossing, you know, part of your cigarette in the water. And she's like, oh, the filters are not biodegradable, but the rest of the cigarette is, so it's okay if I put that in the water cuz that'll biodegrade. But, and then she pulled out her hand and had like, I don't know, 30 filters in her hand from her pocket and stuff. Oh
Speaker 2:Man.
Speaker 1:And I like, wow. Yeah. So that has stuck with me for a long time. Um, okay. So those are just kind of three things that needed, thanks for
Speaker 3:Those pro tips, Travis
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Hey, anytime. Okay. So the most interesting part, and there's a lot of good stuff, and you got a lot of great people on here, specialists talking about different things and different aspects of it. But the most interesting part to me of the documentary came near the end, Melissa, when, and, and I'm, excuse me for not remembering their exact names, but you were at one point talking to the professor who's also Native American about whether or not he had ever been consulted by the representative from Buffalo about that gentleman's plans to help clean up the lake. And then you also talked to the representative from Buffalo about that. And there's, you know, there's so much tension there because if I'm characterizing this correctly, you know, the, the guy from Buffalo is basically saying, look, you know, we need to do something immediately to fix this lake. And the other gentleman's basic, basically saying, this has been going on a long time, it'd be nice if someone actually asked us what to do. Is it, it was, it was pretty tension-filled, I thought, is that a good characterization of it, Melissa?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you did characterize that perfectly and that part of the film, that tension is an important one to point out because it is, it is both. I mean, it could, it's a barrier to progress when it comes to, um, having a healthy lake and a healthy ecosystem and healthy human communities. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but it's also an, it's also an opportunity and I really, really hope that we can make it an opportunity. Um, one thing, and the professor you're referring to is Dr. Joe Stallman.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:And, um, he is, until very recently, he was the director of the Onus Segune Cultural Center for Seneca Nation. Okay. And, you know, one of the things that Joe says is that we've all got to get to the table and, you know, recognizing, you know, we all recognize the sense of urgency that the climate crisis in particular is, is, uh, presenting. And it's, which means it's even more important to make sure that everyone is at the table when we think, when we figure out how we are going to collectively move forward, um, together in the future. And it's really easy, given the, the urgency and all of the emotions that come up with that to, it could be really easy to move, move very quickly and to skip important steps in order to re our reach our, um, objectives and our agendas that, that are very important. Um, but we have to always remember to, to take enough time to make sure that we are seeing the whole picture. And everyone that has everyone involved has, um, a voice at the table. Not to mention the fact that, you know, one of the reasons that we interviewed Dr. Stallman is because he is a knowledge keeper about the Great Law of Peace, the Nessun great Law of Peace, which has rules, um, inside of it for how to live in harmony with the natural world and each other, you know, and those simple rules are things that are absent from the way things operate today. And they are the key rules for Theone in particular, to maintain balance. And if those key rules are not followed, that's when crisis and degradation and crisis occur. So, you know, one of the things that Dr. Salman mentions at the end is like, you know, what if we all came to the table and looked at those original instructions and said, how might they apply mm-hmm.<affirmative> today. And that for me is the part of this series where we never say the word consent, but that's where consent comes in, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and man, I, I hope moving forward that we're able to do some of that.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, in speaking of balance, I I thought you presented both of them very in a way that, that I felt sympathy towards both of their arguments.
Speaker 2:Well, good. That's really nice to hear.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was gonna say thanks, thanks for saying that. I, I will say too, in the first episode when we're talking to, uh, Tim Bruno, who's actually the Russell, correct me if I'm wrong, but the chief of the Office of the Great Lakes for Pennsylvania, d e p, if I'm correct.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yep. Okay.
Speaker 3:Um, we, we do also ask him, uh, you know, if how inclusive, you know, these, these meetings are when they're meeting about, you know, how to handle the Great Lakes and our relationship with them, um, going forward. And, you know, you do get kind of a, I wanna say a similar answer, um, where it's like, oh, yes, all, all people are invited. And yes, of course we, we invite all the tribes and First Nation people, and they're able to attend certain meetings on certain dates and things like that. But then he also kind of says, um, you know, they have no, uh, power in the conversation. Um, but of course they're, they're able to join if, if they want to, you know, so, you know, just piling onto what Melissa said there, you know, with like, we have this great law of peace, and it is so simple. Um, and it's like, man, if we could just have a reset and really look at our relationship with the natural world in, in these basic terms, like, and just approach the conversation from that point of view. I'll also say that one of, uh, one of the moments that really crushed me personally, um,<laugh> when we were in, in production was when we interviewed Joe, which, uh, I believe was our, our last interview, Melissa, is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh.
Speaker 3:<affirmative>. Yeah. So, so we, you know, had met with all these fantastic activists, and when we met with, uh, assemblyman Burke, uh, you know, I was like feeling very positive and, you know, like often does because it's such a struggle right? In when you're an activist and you know, you're always, uh, running up against a wall and mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, hurdles and obstacles and things like that. So, you know, you really feed off of each other's positivity and energy, and we all understand that the struggle is so real and that everything that everyone does, um, on their own islands is, is so important. And it's just, it really crystallized for me when Joe, you know, said, Hey, this isn't the silver bullet. This isn't like, you know, the magic wand that's going to save and fix everything if, if we pass this great, like, spill of rights. Um, you know, it just kind of took the air out of me mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and then really gave me this new perspective of, yeah, we really are, we all want the same thing, but we are oftentimes, I hope that's clear, um, especially in part two, a little bit that we're kind of talking past each other. Yeah. And we really should, um, you know, unite for that common cause. Um,
Speaker 1:Well, part
Speaker 3:Better
Speaker 1:Part of the issue seems to be, uh, when you're speaking of division, just the division between, you've got, you know, Ohio, you've got Pennsylvania, you've got New York and Michigan, and then Canada, and just all these different jurisdictions beyond even, uh, you know, what you're looking at in this that seems to just make it so complicated.
Speaker 3:It's challenging because of the legal framework that we live in, right? It's mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, different rules and laws and, you know, maybe one country allow or state allows you to pollute more than another one does, and which one wins out in those conversations again, I think it comes back to, yeah, if we can really like, reboot and approach the whole situation from a different perspective, um, you know, I don't wanna necessarily say from like a moral perspective, but it does kind of feel like that sometimes that, you know, yes, it, it is difficult because we have kind of made it difficult, um mm-hmm.<affirmative> by having to work through the legal system. Like we have to sue corporations, uh, if they pollute too much or whatever. And then are we allowed to sue on behalf of, you know, the Great Lakes or Lake Erie? Um, we have to look at it in that term, in, in a capitalistic society. It's unfortunate. And that's part of what makes it so difficult.
Speaker 1:No, that really came through, I thought, especially in the second episode. How long did it it take you guys to, um, to produce the two shows
Speaker 2:We filmed of all of July last summer in Erie, which was a great time to be an Erie, I gotta say. Sure. Um,<laugh> and then, um, post-production, if we had to shrink it into a maybe solid work timeline was about three months after that.
Speaker 1:Nice. Nice. Yeah. There's, there's a lot in there. What, let me wrap this up with both of you and I'll, um, John, I'll start with you first on this one. What's something that, that you learned that you didn't expect to come across or come upon while working on this?
Speaker 3:Uh, honestly, I didn't know. I, I learned a lot. Like, honestly, I learned a lot. I did not know about the, I had heard rumors about you can only, or you should only eat one, uh, meal of Fish out of, uh, lake Erie per month. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, we've, like you said, there's, there's jokes and comments here and there, but, um, you know, when you kind of see it in a, in a formal infographic, uh, from the state, that, that really hit home for me. Uh, so I guess maybe that was just something reinforced relearned. Um, also, you know, I, I know a lot of the people, um, that we interviewed in the documentary, but really I learned something about each one of them. I, uh, have so much respect for each of them, and, you know, so much love for what they do tirelessly, how they work tirelessly. Most of them volunteers on all of our behalfs and on, um, our natural world's Behalfs that, you know, it's like we, we take that for granted, just like we take, uh, lake Erie for granted. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I, I learned so much right along, uh, hopefully with everyone that, that watches it, honestly, because this isn't my normal lane, my normal world. So I was really soaking it all up like a sponge, whether Melissa was interviewing the person or I was interviewing the person, I was learning tons of stuff constantly. I guess the most shocking one for me was, you know, that put it in perspective in terms I think that most people can understand about the fragility of the situation is that, you know, right now, um, mm-hmm.<affirmative>, we, we can, we're limited with the amount of fish we can eat. Um, that's pretty scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's actually better than it used to be, which is pretty scary. Melissa, you get the last word.
Speaker 2:You know, I also learned so much. I grew up two and a half hours from Erie and really had never spent any time there until living there, uh, last summer for production. And I really, I, by the end, man, I w I am crushing hard on Erie as a city<laugh>. That's awesome. As and as a region. It's just such a beautiful place with such amazing people living there who care deeply about their community. And that that was really awesome to learn, um, about Lake Erie in particular. I just, I learned more about who Lake Erie is, and, and that of course goes far beyond Lake Erie in, into the Great Lakes watershed shed at large, which, you know, in 15, 20 years is gonna be, uh, a place of climate migration. And I'm, I'm hoping that all of the good people that are already doing the work in the Great Lakes, um, grow in numbers, um, because the, the, the influx of people and the climate, um, impacts to the, the Great Lakes Watershed, the largest freshwater<laugh> body on planet Earth mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and given all of the, the jurisdictions and stakeholders at play, you know, I I I, I really hope to maintain that relationship and, um, as looking into the future as we, as we learn how to adjust to that reality.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Melissa, John, thank you both so much for this conversation, uh, on environmental voices, and thank you both for the work that you did in creating Lake Yar kin. It is greatly appreciated.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:For a number of years, a small but mighty group of activists and Erie have called themselves Hold Erie Coke accountable, which is exactly what they have been doing in their efforts to require the Erie Coke factory, which sat right on the bay from violating air quality emissions and spilling contaminants into the lake. The two leaders of Hold Erie Coke accountable, our Eerie Veek Dict team sister Pat Lupo, and Dr. Mike Campbell, a distinguished professor of biology at Mercy Hirst University sister Pat. Mike, welcome to Environmental Voices. Uh,
Speaker 4:Thanks for, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Glad to have you both on, been looking forward to chatting with you both, uh, did a great job in the, uh, documentary on Lake Erie, by the way, which, uh, we've been talking about during this episode of Environmental Voices. But I, I really enjoyed watching. Um, and I know you talked a bit about this, uh, during, during the, the documentary, but I'd like to start with, um, asking the two of you, you know, how you got started with, with creating the, the Hold Eerie Koch Accountable Project?
Speaker 5:Well, you know, Travis, um, Erie Koch has been around for a long time, and, um, there always have been, um, issues, but it, it seemed like, um, things were just getting way outta hand, and there were more and more violations, and so mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, Mike and I were chatting and, um, said, um, why don't you start a group? And I said, why don't you start a group? And we said, well, let's do it together. And so that's really how, um, hold Erie Coke, um, accountable began, and the idea from the very beginning was Al was always to hold them accountable mm-hmm.<affirmative> so that they would meet the regulations not to close them down, although eventually that's what happened.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And, and I mean, really just closed fairly recently, um, on that. And I mean, I remember when I was a kid, you know, growing up in Erie in the seventies and eighties, that, you know, I mean, that part of, of the, the, the Bay was just, I mean, really awful. And, you know, people knew there was a lot of pollution going on, but there didn't really seem to be any consequences, or people just kind of accepted it. Was, was there something that really changed that just made it worse?
Speaker 4:You know, I'll add something here. Um, in addition to Sister Pat and I that came together to speak about it, we had a, a new member of our community that, uh, became involved in, uh, some of the, the air quality issues here in Erie. His name is Court Gould. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think court brought sort of a, a fresh perspective having not lived in Erie, you know, a significant part of his life. Uh, and, and he, he had personal, uh, reactions to the, the, the nasty odors that emanated from Erie Koch that were wafting along the shoreline to where he was living in the city. And I, I want a credit court too, with having given us some incentive to, uh, to stand up and do something about it.
Speaker 1:That's excellent. Yeah, definitely. You know, you know, I, I should probably take a step back and, and just for, you know, the few listeners who may not be familiar with it, that the Eerie Coke site has nothing to do with Coca-Cola or soda drinks. Right. That it was<laugh>, uh, uh, the Coke involved<laugh>. Right. I'm sure some people think that, but you know, that's not the case. But, uh, you know, the Coke that's involved in, in production of Iron and, and just, you know, tons of ru I mean, and as you said, sister Patta mean, I believe that there was some manufacturing on that site I read from 1833, and then it became a Coke production facility in 1925 until it closed in 2019. And, and all that time with the Coke production involved a whole bunch of, you know, chemicals and, and other toxins and, and hazardous substances that were being released, you know, into the air and into the water, you know, during all those years. So it's, you know, certainly, you know, it was a huge public health threats and environmental justice issue. Um, and, and certainly, uh, Erie is better from, uh, that standpoint now to have it, uh, the operations ceased. Um, but it was, it was not an easy battle for you and, and your supporters.
Speaker 5:Uh, no, it wasn't. And if you would look at the site, uh, from an aerial view, you see a big black spot, um, you know, right along our, uh, lakefront mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but, um, we, you know, we're Erie, the core group of Erie, um, of hold Erie Koch accountable is, is a small group. You know, we're eight people. But, um, we were able to, um, initiate citizen action. And, uh, that's really what got things moving. Um, we produced little cars. We, um, you know, different ones of our members met with citizen groups, so that any time there was a mal odor or, um, uh, any mission of, um, pollution from the stacks, um, d e P was called mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, they have a hotline. And so as those calls increased, then d e P began to get more involved. And, uh, so it was really citizen action that helped us move things along. And it was, uh, we formed originally because there was a Title five, uh, permit that was due to be, um, reissued. And so we were, we were trying to get people involved so that we could get a lot of people at the public meeting to put more pressure on, on folks. And so that was the initial, um, beginnings of the group.
Speaker 1:What, what year was that when, when you first began the group?
Speaker 4:20 17, 20 18? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now that, uh, Erie Cocus closed down, bring me up to speed a bit on what's been happening with the, the site since, because it's certainly not, um, uh, a, a beautiful green space, is it?
Speaker 5:No, it isn't. Um, it actually closed in December, al almost right before Christmas of 2019. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and finally by May of, um, 2020, uh, d e p requested assistance for cleanup of the site from epa. So EPA came in, um, they actually began work maybe in July to do a site evaluation and, uh, a removal action plan. Eventually in, in September, there was a action memorandum, and then they began cleanup later in September. So what they were doing was a cleanup of the, um, hazard, any hazardous materials that were on site. Um, and these were all surfaced. They weren't doing, you know, they weren't, they weren't doing soil samples or water samples or anything, but it was, um, uh, just the surface materials. And then, um, and that went on
Speaker 4:About a year or more. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:At least a year, year and a half maybe. And then, um, it was just in July of last year, then that d e p began what is considered the second phase of the investigation. Hmm. Which is really then the hazardous site cleanup program, um, moved in. And, um, Mike, why don't you tell him a little bit about the process of that program? Sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That, that involved a lot of, um, sample, uh, you know, sampling of soil and, uh, drilling bore holes to, uh, to check the, the groundwater levels. And they, um, d e P didn't do all that work themselves. They, they hired, uh, professional contractors to do the mm-hmm.<affirmative>, the site sampling and the, all of the chemical testing. And they, I did a really, uh, thorough job of testing all of the possible contaminants that, you know, could have likely been released there over the years and all over the place. You know, they were sampling in areas where there were known, um, storage and probably spills of byproducts, which are, are not a very good thing Yeah. On the site. And, uh, they had, there had been problems with their water, uh, pre-treatment, uh, the, the wastewater that was generated on the site had been sent to the Erie Wastewater treatment plant. And what actually caused them to shut down at the end was, uh, a failure in their ability to address their wastewater issues. And there was a big, a big spill. So the testing kind of covered all of the areas where there were known occurrences of spills. And, and now we have in our hands the, the reports which indicate how serious and high concentrations of, of, uh, at least a dozen different chemicals that, uh, they're now going to need to be addressed on the site before anything else can happen there.
Speaker 1:Sure. I mean, I mean, it's almost two centuries of manufacturing that were, were occurring on that site. So, you know, and not surprised to hear of everything that was found and, and how awful it's, but Mike, what's, I mean, what do you see as, you know, optimistically the future of that site?
Speaker 4:Um, or can you be optimistic? It depends on, yeah. It, it depends on what they do to stabilize the, uh, the, the contaminants that are at the surface and how they address the, the contaminants that are underneath the surface that are in the groundwater, and likely, you know, making their way out into Lake Erie mm-hmm.<affirmative> nearby. And that includes some, uh, chemicals like benzene and naline that, uh, organic chemicals that can cause toxicity to aquatic life and harm people if people were to come in contact with it. So I honestly don't know that we can even fantasize what, what's gonna be possible on that site until the next step in the process, which is when D e P will be, um, developing a kind of a remediation plan for, for moving forward and continued monitoring.
Speaker 1:Now, of course, I mean, the plant, as we have said, shut down in 2019 at the end there, but the people that owned Erie Coke, are they being held accountable now for this testing? And then what eventually could be, you know, really extensive cleanup operation.
Speaker 5:Um, we've seen no accountability from Eerie Coke on, uh, anything. Um, you know, they, they walked out on their workers, they walked out on the community, and now the citizens are paying for the cleanup. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, D e P does have, um, I don't know, I think a million or$2 million lien on the property, but, um, there really has been no accountability, Billy, at least from my perspective, from Erie Coke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's what I was afraid of. Yeah. Mike, anything you wanted to add to that?
Speaker 4:Uh, no, I mean, there are, there have been criminal charges filed against, uh, one of the plant supervisors who was there in the last several years. But, uh, the owner of the company who, uh, one would suspect, you know, might have some responsibility too, has mm-hmm.<affirmative> has not, uh, not been held accountable at all.
Speaker 1:So, is, is your group hold your E Coke accountable? You're still active, correct? I mean, I, I see that you've got a Facebook page and a website. Are you still, um, actively pursuing this?
Speaker 5:Um, we are, we, um, during the E P A cleanup, we met about every three or four months with the mm-hmm.<affirmative> with the, um, site coordinators just to see what was going on and where we were in the process. And, um, we doing the same thing with, um, d e P Now that the report has come out, um, uh, Mike has actually done some back and forth via email, but we're going to ask the d e p to come into a meeting so we can talk about more about, you know, what's happening on site throughout the process. We've tried to talk to, um, you know, community leaders, uh, we wanna try to get, uh, more stakeholders involved. Sure. Um, I think one of the biggest, you know, concerns, uh, for me, kind of the in inability of leaders and citizens, um, to calculate the environmental costs and benefits, you know, of their actions. I, I think, you know, too often we think, and just in terms of economic impacts and not in terms of, you know, lifelong environmental impacts and what it's doing for future generations in terms of, of our actions today mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I think there's just that lack of understanding and actions to address, um, this and, you know, the bigger problem of climate crisis.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Mike, anything you wanna add, uh, to that as we wrap things up with this Environmental Voices interview?
Speaker 4:Uh, just to, uh, piggyback on what Sister Pat said, I, I suspect that, uh, that some of the individual persons and families that might have been harmed by, you know, their long-term exposure to, uh, the pollutants that were coming from Erie, Koch may be gone at this point. Uh mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, I know in the neighborhood nearby that would've been downwind of, of some of the worst emissions there. You know, there's been people died in the neighborhood and have, you know, moved out to other locations. And I, I think, uh, that's one of the unfortunate things about action being taken, you know, too many years following the, the time when the, the damage occurred is that people that may have been harmed or, or gone now, and that, that is a little bit sad, but, uh, but I'm optimistic that, you know, with what, um, criminal proceedings are taking place, that they'll, they'll at least be some justice served in this.
Speaker 1:Well, it's, it's certainly, uh, you know, it's a tragic history and it's one that's not over yet. Um, obviously there's still a lot to play out, but, uh, uh, please know, I mean, how much the efforts of the two of you and, and your organization, the work that you've done to, you know, accelerate at least, uh, this, this movement towards some justice, uh, how much that is appreciated. Thank you both so very much.
Speaker 4:Well, you for interviewing us,
Speaker 1:Penn Future is a statewide environmental advocacy organization with offices in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, and the Poconos. Since 2020, we've also been in Erie. Jenny Tompkins is Penn Future's campaign manager for Clean water advocacy in the Lake Erie Watershed. Jenny, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 6:Thanks for having me, Travis. I'm happy to be on.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So let's start off by just briefly explaining what your role at Penn Future is, uh, specifically in Erie.
Speaker 6:Yeah, thanks. I am the campaign manager for Clean Water Advocacy in the Lake Erie Watershed, and I lead the, our water, our future campaign for protecting the Pennsylvania Lake Erie Watershed, which is a collaborative campaign with about a dozen other partners in Erie mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And we laid out eight threats to water quality and a number of policy and community based strategies to try to mitigate those threats.
Speaker 1:So it gives me two specific questions. One, the water you're talking about in Lake Erie Watershed, it includes Lake Erie, but it's not just Lake Erie, right?
Speaker 6:Correct. So a watershed or a basin, which is an even easier way to think about it, is an area of land where all of the water precipitation hits the ground and ultimately runs off into, into a major water body. So the Lake Erie Watershed is about the northern half of Erie County and the northwest corner of Crawford County in northwest pa mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and there are several dozen tributary streams that actually run into to Lake Erie that we're concerned about as well.
Speaker 1:Okay. So your work, just to be clear, you are not out there, um, scooping up trash from the riverbank. You're, it's more kind of behind the scenes right. And getting people activated and motivated to care about things and, and it crosses over a bit into policy.
Speaker 6:Absolutely. So while I'm thankful for the partners and organizations in the area that are leading those cleanups and, and doing a lot of that community-based work, absolutely. We are a policy advocacy organization. So a good example of a recommendation that would be in our campaign that I worked on a lot last year was the creation of a city of Erie Environmental Advisory Council. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, which is a framework that the, that the state actually allowed municipalities to utilize dating back to the mid seventies. And Erie became the hundred 61st municipality to have what we call an e A C and Penn Future's work was in working with partners in the community to educate about this idea and actually draft an ordinance that was ultimately passed by city council.
Speaker 1:It seems like a pretty big deal. What is that gonna mean when the environmental, uh, council actually is activated?
Speaker 6:Yeah. So the good news is that the, they're actually seeking applications right now for the EAC at the city, and residents who have expertise in environmental matters can apply to serve, there'll be seven seats. But what what's so important about EACs is their advisory, given the name, and they provide insights and do research on behalf of elected officials and staff to, to inform a lot around the environment. EACs and the Commonwealth have focused on climate action planning, renewable energy, storm water infrastructure waste, and recycling. It could go on and on and on, but they, they do, they do a lot of work at the local level on a volunteer basis.
Speaker 1:And so they're advising to City County Council to the mayor's office, is that correct?
Speaker 6:Yeah, to City Council, the mayor, and hopefully some critical staff, uh mm-hmm.<affirmative> that we have a sustainability coordinator at the city, a really active public works department with environmental projects, a parks department, all of those folks could be interfacing with the eac.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So, hey, tell me about your involvement in the documentary, uh, that, that we've been talking about on this episode of Environmental Voices.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it was a, it was a really great privilege to be interviewed as, as part of the process for the documentary. I was actually interviewed last summer on the Bayfront right in front of Bicentennial Tower, which was great. And it gave me a, a great opportunity to be among other advocates that are working to protect Lake Erie. I'm really happy that we had representation from the Western Central and Eastern Basin, so not just the Central Basin where we are. I'm really glad to have been part of the project.
Speaker 1:Very cool stuff. Yeah. It's just, it's such a great, great documentary and there's a, um, special showing of it coming up, right?
Speaker 6:Yeah. We're really happy that a first community screening event is happening on Saturday June 3rd at the Tom Ridge Environmental Center in their big green screen theater. We're gonna have a networking hour at five, and then a screening and discussion starting at 6:00 PM
Speaker 1:Nice. That'll be great. And of course, people can also watch it online as well through the W Q L N website, and we'll give that, uh, information a little bit later again. Uh, but, uh, you know, really enjoyed, uh, learning more about the documentary and, and how it was put together. And of course, all the people involved in it, you know, what are, what sort of feedback are you hearing about it?
Speaker 6:I'm hearing that people are, have really resonated with it, given that it's all about our connection to Lake Erie and our history with Lake Erie. I think all Erie IES can understand that connection and it's been so central to their lives and our regional identity. Also hearing a lot of great things about the integration of indigenous voices mm-hmm.<affirmative> in, in this documentary, because of our history for Erie County in particular, we've been cut off from a lot of those, uh, indigenous connections, and we don't have the traditional ecological knowledge that a lot of other places on the Great Lakes are taking advantage of. And so I'm really proud to be part of a, a piece that's, it's centering those voices and recognizing the, the thousands of years of human connection to Lake Erie.
Speaker 1:And how can other people get involved
Speaker 6:By asking difficult questions, by making sure that voices that aren't represented at tables are being encouraged to participate by asking local communities what's important to them. I think that's, that Lakey Arkin, the two episodes are a great starting point for helping people reflect on their relationship with the lake. And we may realize that people in our community have no connection to Lake Erie because of access barriers or other inequities that have prevented them from doing so. One example of this is there's a, a large proportion of people in the city of Erie that don't own vehicles. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but getting to Presca Bay, with the exception of, luckily the local, uh, Erie Metropolitan Transit Authority does provide some free bus rides to the Peninsula, but that's still a great barrier for people. So I think just stepping back and critically asking who isn't in the space? Who needs to be here? What perspective is missing? But also people can have different relationships to Lake Erie. And there, there may be quite a bit we need to do to improve and repair some of the damage that's been done.
Speaker 1:Denny, you're doing great work up there in Erie, and I appreciate it. I also wanna let people know that, uh, they can support the work that you're doing by participating in Erie Gibbs Day, which is coming up in August. And, uh, Penn Future is again participating in that day long day of giving to support work being done to benefit, uh, Erie in the surrounding area. Uh, great stuff. Jenny. Thanks so much for being on Environmental Voices. We really appreciate it
Speaker 6:For having me.
Speaker 1:And that does it for this connecting with Lake Erie episode of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast. Thanks again to our guests, filmmakers, Melissa Troutman and John Lyons, activist sister Pat Lupo and Dr. Mike Campbell and Penn Futures, Jenny Tompkins. If you would like to watch the two-part documentary, lake Erie r Kin, you can find it on the website for W Q L N, Erie's Public Broadcasting Station, just go to wq ln.org and click on watch and then the Chronicle series, you'll find them there. There's also a special screening and discussion of the documentary that will take place on June 3rd at the Tom Ridge Environmental Center in Erie from five to 8:00 PM that is free. You'll be able to meet the filmmakers and others involved with the documentary. You've got more information available on the Pen Future website, or you can go to eventbrite.com and search for Lake Erie Arkin. If you enjoy this episode, make sure to subscribe and leave behind a review of Environmental Voices, the Pen Future Podcast, wherever you get your podcast. And as always, please let us know what you'd like to hear on future episodes. And thanks again to our sponsor, infinity Designing and installing Solar Power Systems for homes and businesses in central and western PA since 2005. Information on how Infinity can help to achieve net zero energy can be found@infinity.com. Environmental Voices is also sponsored by Penn Future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. And if you are interested in becoming a sponsor, please let us know. Today's show was produced by Jenny Tompkins, Michael Mirar, and me Travesty Cola, who was also written by me. And I've been your host and audio engineer. Our executive producer is Matt Step. Our music is thanks to p bay.com. Thank you for listening to Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast.
